“Christians for Obama” (and “McCain Haters for McCain”)

13 Responses to ““Christians for Obama” (and “McCain Haters for McCain”)”

1. Bill in Dallas on October 11th, 2008 2:52 pm
   

   Abortion is not the only issue. You’re definitely correct and I agree with you.

   But if you added up all the other issues (war in Iraq, taxes, healthcare, economy, immigration, etc.) do they add up to the importance of state funded infanticide?

   Honestly, I just can’t see the math swinging in favor of voting in favor of Obama who wants to extend the “right of abortion” not only in America, but throughout the world. We’re not talking about the death of a few human beings – we’re talking about the partial genocide of several generations. It’s not merely an issue in a list of issues, it is an unprecedented horror in human history.

   We can’t judge others, but we can speak of for what is right and good. We must also vote accordingly.

   As an aside and unrelated to this post – the war in Iraq is not something we can make go away, regardless of our opinion on the matter. Whether were in favor of it or not, it’s here and we have to find a way to end it quickly and properly. Most people emphasize the “quickly” and forget the “properly”.
2. Doug Pearson on October 13th, 2008 5:24 am
   

   Flawed position on abortion…

   Obama’s abortion position is not flawed, it is EVIL! This man refused to afford protection from infanticide 4 times while a legislator in Illinois. He refused to support a ban on an abortion procedure that involves puncturing a child’s skull while in the birthing process.

   Obama has promised that his first act as President of the United States will be to sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which will strip states of any legal authority to impose even the mildest of restrictions on abortion… including making it a requirement that the parents of the minor child are informed that she is having an abortion!

   A flaw is an imperfection and can even make something more attractive because it makes it more human. To understate, in this way, the wrongness of Obama’s radical abortion policies is akin to saying that Hitler was a little over the top with his hate for the Jews.

   To even suggest that a Christian would see past Hitler’s “flawed” ideology and still vote for him, knowing what we know about him- seems to indicate that you do not understand what a Christian is. Or that baptism works like a lobotomy on some Christians.

   Doug
3. Charlton Wimberly on October 13th, 2008 12:23 pm
   

   Doug,

   Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, it contains exactly the kind of rhetoric that I called reckless and misguided in my post. You assert that I “do not understand what a Christian is” because I suggested that a Christian might be able to weigh the issues and decide to vote for Obama. When you make such assertions, you effectively circumvent the marketplace of ideas. Instead of trying to convince me of why you’re right, you simply regress to name calling (in this case, the name appears to be “heretic”). That does nothing to further the debate. As both a Christian and a fan of democratic debate, I would like to see the level of discourse over presidential politics in this country reach a level that at least dimly resembles Christlikeness (at least among Christians). At present, it’s nowhere close. I am not suggesting that you or anyone else refrain from voicing your opinions. On the contrary, I WANT you to share your opinions–I am simply asking that you and others do it without calling into question the faith of the people to whom you are speaking. Flailing ones arms and screaming “heretic” is rarely an effective means of swaying public opinion.

   Charlton
4. Clint on October 13th, 2008 3:52 pm
   

   Charlton,

   With sincerest respect, there really are no “opinions” on this matter. Holy Mother Church has spoken through her shepherds, our bishops, with the authority that is rightly theirs.

   I have provided a few links below to the some of the bishops who have been in the news lately. In their statements they bring up or allude to some of the other arguments/issues in our times, but they still state abortion trumps them all.

   Peace be with you.

   Clint

   http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=29978

   http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=29432

   http://www.catholic.org/politics/story.php?id=29320
5. Charlton Wimberly on October 13th, 2008 8:01 pm
   

   Thanks, Clint. While I have great respect for the Catholic Church, as a Presbyterian, I do not consider the Church’s teaching on political issues to be authoritative. So the articles that you cite are not sufficient to persuade me (or, I suspect, the many Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc., out there) that it is impossible to both be a Christian and vote for Obama. I fully agree with you and the others who have commented that abortion is evil. I also agree that we should seek to persuade others of the evilness of abortion. I further agree that, in general, we should not support candidates who are in favor of abortion. And I also do not plan to vote for Obama.

   But I do not think that one’s identity as a Christian is tied to whether he or she votes Republican or Democrat. Anti-Obama Christians would be much more persuasive if they focused on the issues, and attempted to persuade their fellow citizens regarding those issues, instead of handing down judgments about those citizens’ eternal salvation based on the candidate they decide to vote for.
6. Doug Pearson on October 14th, 2008 12:56 pm
   

   Charlton,

   I don’t remember flailing even once while writing, but maybe my recollection is flawed.

   My point is that when you understate, so dramatically, Obama’s abortion stance and its threat, you call into question your intelligence or honesty.

   Obama is not flawed on abortion- his position is pure evil.

   If that’s reckless and misguided… so be it.

   Doug
7. Clint on October 14th, 2008 1:43 pm
   

   Charlton,

   My apologies…I forgot I was commenting on Taylor’s “Christian” blog, not his “Catholic” blog, where my statements would have been more relevant.

   You acknowledge by your own words that abortion is evil. I agree with you that small children outside the womb who are killed by bombs is heart-wrenching. You and I agree on two things so we’re getting somewhere.

   Although I do NOT believe this to be the case, for the sake of this conversation, let’s assume abortion and the current war are the same moral equivalence.

   Putting them on the same timeline, the total deaths from the war in Iraq from 2003-2006 were ~660,000. (Here I am just taking the highest casualty I could find on the internet, which are based on statistical projections of some research groups. Whether these projections are accurate or these groups have agendas is a debate for another date). The total deaths from abortions for the same for years was ~5.2 million (1.3 million abortions per year).

   Assuming 100% moral equivalence between the two issues, one should argue to still show preference to abortion where the greater number of lives would be saved. Taking it a step further, I know of nothing that during that four-year time frame that would have equated to the death of 5.2 million human beings, even adding all other issues to which you allude.

   As crude as this sounds, from a purely mathematical standpoint the abortion issue should still be the deciding factor.

   One final note of clarication from your post above…my Church on the links I provided is not teaching on political issues as you implied. It is teaching on moral issues which happen to be at the center of the political debate.

   Peace be with you.

   Clint
8. Solidus on October 15th, 2008 7:04 pm
   

   Nice article dude.

   However, since both these candidates are lame (like most christians), I am going to go surfing and take the day off, like I did 4 years ago.

   If christians were more concerned about the real kingdom, I doubt this kingdom would be so bad.
9. MT on October 16th, 2008 9:36 pm
   

   I have to agree with Clint. Assuming for the sake of argument, that abortion of any kind and under any circumstance is morally equal to deaths in war, then the greater moral evil would seem to be abortion. Considering that since abortion was legalized, something more than 30,000,000 unborn human beings have been killed by the procedure in the USA, I think it is reasonable to conclude that abortion is a greater evil than all of the real and putative moral evils ever committed by the US gov’t, by far.

   So, again, please remind me how Christians should evaluate a candidate’s position on abortion.

   The only way one can arrive at the conclusion that abortion is not the greatest moral evil allowed to be perpetrated by the US gov’t is to take the position that no life and aborted life is equal to or better than a materially or physically deprived life. Otherwise, the only situation I can imagine where abortion should be truly left to the choice of the mother is when her life is truly and really at risk. I know that is not a purist stance on the issue, but assuming equal value of the unborn child and the expecting mother, I just don’t know what should happen. I know that one cogent Christian position is that only God can give and take life, but there are exceptions to God’s monopoly on taking life, and in the case of a mother truly being at risk of death, … well, I just don’t know.

   Othewise, it is mruder and EVIL and should not be justified or allowed, legally, morally or otherwise. Period.

   Of course, we as Christians have concomitant moral responsibilities that flow from such a position. Charity, forgiveness, generosity. But calling evil what it is does not equal an absence of those graces. It’s the first step to achieving them.
10. JF on October 23rd, 2008 6:23 pm
    

    Charlton,
    My goodness! I was looking on the web to get some understanding of why conservative Christians think it is necessary to support McCain. Thank you for laying your opinion out there in an eloquent way. My life with Christ is based on so many things including the Bible but not really entrenched in politics. As an American, though, I do seek to combine what I perceive as Christ’s ideals for mankind and favor the Democratic stance in 2008 of anti-war and sharing our ridiculous wealth in this country a little more. Abortion is a hot-button issue that, sadly, probably will not be overturned. Being the “loony liberal” :) I am more interested in educating ourselves and those around us about preventing unwanted pregnancies. I want to ask my fellow Christians to please show more kindness to each other. Charlton simply stated a reality of our society and his confusion and he was verbally blasted for it. We need to stick together instead of trying to bully each other into our way of politically thinking. Why do you all instantly assume that anyone who is pro-choice thinks abortion is not murder? How can you not give a fellow servant of Jesus so little benefit of doubt? Abortion is never a good moral choice and these women will never escape the horror of it themselves. How desperate a woman must be to choose this but by taking it away we could be endangering more lives. God made us all different and unique and I think if we could listen a little more to each other we would realize we can work together to make the world better instead of divisive. Also, a Christian should never question another person’s salvation. That is between them and God and insidious to try and undermine that for someone.
11. Greg on October 27th, 2008 4:39 pm
    

    First, let me say that I personally do not favor abortion.

    I do believe that Obama recognizes that it is a moral issue. Many of the conservative Christians (like myself) are often blinded by rigid dogmatic view points from other Christians. So we tend to NOT see what someone might actually be saying about the issue and we listen to misguided brothers and sisters in Christ. Yes, Obama supports the typical Democratic party line regarding Roe vs Wade. I believe Obama is saying that women should at least be afforded the opportunity to make this moral decision for themselves. Men have certainly impregnated women, and yet they leave the situation countless times without legal prosecution…

    This is what Obama has said about the subject. “I don’t think people take the issue lightly. A lot of people have arrived in the view that I’ve arrived at, which is that there is a moral implication to these issues, but that the women involved are in the best position to make that determination. And I don’t think they make it lightly. I don’t think they make it callously, so I reject a comparison between a woman struggling with these issues and Michael Vick fighting dogs for sport. I don’t think that’s sort of how people perceive it.”

    Source – Zeleny, J. (2007, October 6). The New York Times Politics Blog. Retrieved October 27, 2008, from The cacus blogs – The New York Times Web site: http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/obama-explores-abortion-issue/

    Both McCain and Obama supports civil unions between gay couples. Does this make both McCain and Obama evil? McCain supports the war in Iraq, but Obama would rather abandon this loss cause and go directly for the Al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan. Both want to capture and kill our enemy in some way… who is evil?

    I’m not claiming to be an expert, but unless any of you truly know Obama’s position on abortion, you might want to read Matthew 7:3-5, then do some research on your own to see what is truly being said by Obama. We, as Christians, tend to categorize sin and cast people as being evil… when we all fall short… DAILY. How are we so different from Obama?
12. diane on October 28th, 2008 1:59 am
    

    I just found this out so I just want to make sure we’re all informed…
    if you knew sorry to bother you and God bless you!

    Obama’s United Trinity Church of Christ teaches that homosexuality is moral and approved by God.
    This link shows their singles ministry has “same gender loving”
    http://www.trinitychicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=98
13. Taylor Marshall on October 28th, 2008 11:36 am
    

    Greg,

    “I believe Obama is saying that women should at least be afforded the opportunity to make this moral decision for themselves. Men have certainly impregnated women, and yet they leave the situation countless times without legal prosecution…”

    If it were simply a matter of preference such as in choosing a health care package, that would be one thing. However, we are talking about one person murdering another person. We are talking about Americans killing Americans. It’s true that we cannot see the person who is murdered or hear his or her screams. Nevertheless, the infant’s right to life is being denied and the child is being tortured and murdered. If the right to life is not secured in our nation, which right is secure?!

    Why should anyone have the “right” to make this decision. Should I have the “right” to make the moral choice whether or not to kill my neighbor?

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